More data submissions are needed to help determine any patterns. (Both Saginaw's (S.G) and (S'G') made a total of 517,212 M1 Carbines) : About 8.5% of M1 Carbines made. Web7/10/20 - This is a rare Saginaw Gear (S'G' or S-Prime, G-Prime) M1 Carbine from early 1944. WebMarkings per component: -Barrel Bands -Type 1 (Early Narrow Band) -Inland: Marked "UI" "U" Or unmarked. of lower quality than those by others. Rate of Fire: M2 on full auto, 650-700rpm It's listed with Inland. Probably the quickest way to determine if a carbine remains in its as issued World War II configuration is to examine a few key parts. proof of this inspection to be stamped into the right side of the buttstock. parts for the M14 rifle, M16 rifle, M60 & M72 Machine Guns, and the Nike and Hawk missile systems. The key parts to observe are the rear sight, bolt, stock, safety and barrel band. Saginaw Steering Gear in nearby Saginaw, MI was already engaged in the preparation for GM. Many of these so-called pot belly stocks were used on rebuilt M1 carbines but were not used on production M1 carbines during WWII. 2. This bridge was eliminated with all M2 stocks and removed from earlier stocks later converted If the bolt is replaced the headspace should be checked again. We buy and sell collectible firearms and militaria ranging from the Civil War to Desert Storm, specializing in WW1 & WW2. Sledge, E. B. Counter-Bored to repair crown. Barrels manufactured by Winchester may have the letter P Anticipated shortages led to the use of yellow birch. Grand Rapids, Mich. Division, the, the Plant, C. 1940-1945. Barrels and receivers manufactured under contract to U.S. Army Ordnance have alignment These barrels were provided Our goal is to encourage collectors by providing honest descriptions, fair prices, and the best customer service. Late during the production of their type III M1 stocks, Winchester and Inland increased the length by the U.S. government. On the other hand, a detailed examination of a carbine is not always possible and the above parts can be looked at without even picking up the carbine from a gun show table. This is not to imply thatonlythese parts are important as every component should be closely scrutinized. Less common, the proofmark may be located elsewhere. The subcontractors were assigned different markings. Upon receipt the original manufacturer's name was crossed out and the final manufacturer's name was added. Occasionally hidden amongst these markings are a set of crossed cannons or the Brown-Lipe-Chapin subcontractor Carbines with a Serial Number above 8 million. Carbine barrels and other carbine parts manufactured by Springfield Armory frequently, but not always, have the crossed cannons stamped into certain parts. This included a few of the previous Engineering carbines no longer needed. You certain the receiver is S'G'? internal purposes known only to them. Dating a carbine by its serial number alone is difficult and not always accurate given the circumstances inherent with manufacturing and the logistics situation Other rear echelon troops far from the action such as Military Police were also issued the gun allowing more front-line infantryman to use Garands and Thompsons. immediately surrounding the bore. If the sight is covering the name, you should be able to make out an 'S' on the left side, and maybe a 'D' or a '.' SG on left side of some receivers, not all. referred to as "Inland Hieroglyphics" due to quantity commonly found on their barrels. The stock seems to be varnished. Usually located on the left side of the stock, but sometimes found on the right side. It is an exciting read about the history of the M1 Carbine, the battle between manufacturers to produce the best possible rifle and the details and different models of the M1 Carbine.
Originally it was planned to equip the USM1 with a firing selector (semi-auto, full-auto). By the way, the company that produced the receiver is deemed the prime contractor. stamped on the barrel flat. Toronto, Canada: Collector Grade Publications, 1992. The only firms that made their own barrels were Inland, Winchester, Underwood, Rock Ola and IBM. War Baby! The Discussion Forum also serves as a reference desk for the more advanced material that could easily overwhelm a website and is often subject to opinions that may vary
Even the most complicated part of the gun, the receiver, that was the serialized center component of the gun that composes the action was sub-contracted and traded between the 9 makers (5, p.155). Two of the most significant areas to observe are the barrel and rear sight base. The decision for which receivers
Read about the Saginaw (S.G.) carbines here: - Serial number blocks assigned by the government: --1st block, (1) Serial Number 1,762,520 - 1,798,000 | April, 1943, - June, 1943 The fact that the vast majority of these weapons were subsequently modified after the war during the extensive post-war overhaul (rebuilding) programs has resulted in unaltered carbines being rather elusive. final inspection. Visit our US militaria page if you are interested in rare American militaria items. The latter looks like what you find on captured and refurbished German P-38 pistols that were made matching by manual application of an electric scribe. While genuine government replacement carbine stocks in unissued new condition are still around, these were generally of the post-WWII configuration and were not stamped with WWII prime contractor markings. 
An Ordnance supplement
United States in the mid 1990's by Armscorp in Baltimore and Red Cloud in Virginia. Afterits success with producing the M1919A4 machine gun that beganin 1940, Plant #2 obtained a contract for 365,500 M1 Carbines on February 13, 1943(5, p. 156). 
A short time after its introduction Chief of Ordnance, Major General L. H. Campbell Jr., wroteReports coming in from all jungle theaters indicate that the carbine is going to be a most useful weapon due to its light weight, small overall length, and the light weight ammunition. Data collected
8448416 identifies this barrel as having a hard chrome plated bore. The commissioning will be done from June 1942. Both were Divisions of General Motors. The Saginaw #2 Plant would produce 293,592 carbines between 1943 and 1944 when the contracts werecancelled. They were located in different cities. A number of researchers and authors are present on the forums, helping others and seeking information for various research projects. then allowed to dry. Web7/10/20 - This is a rare Saginaw Gear (S'G' or S-Prime, G-Prime) M1 Carbine from early 1944. While most major component parts such as receivers, barrels (with a few exceptions), trigger housings, etc.
Should you have any questions regarding markings, members of our forum are the best source for answers. Winchester continued this practice with their type IV M2 stocks and it became the
Copyright 2012-document.write(new Date().getFullYear())
If a receiver was scrapped and not used, its serial number may or may not have been reused. Rogers, Dave. Ordnance depots outside the continental U.S. and foreign facilities contracted by U.S. Accuracy depends on a number of things and
It is assumed these were Ordnance inspection marks but evidence of this has yet to be located. Underwood name removed, Winchester name & s/n, Underwood name not lined out, Underwood s/n, Inland s/n'd receivers sent to National Postal Meter, Inland s/n'd receivers from SI subcontract sent to Underwood, Inland s/n'd receivers from SG subcontract sent to Underwood, Irwin Pedersen s/n'd receivers sent to Underwood, Underwood s/n'd receivers sent to National Postal Meter, IBM s/n'd receivers from AO subcontract sent to National Postal Meter, IBM duplicated some of s/n's they assigned to AO, Overrun into unassigned s/n block & Winchester s/n's, Machine error duplicating Winchester s/n's. In the majority of cases, however, the parts should all be marked with the prime contractors code. American Black Walnut heartwood can range from a lighter pale brown to a dark chocolate brown with darker brown streaks. The new value of a SAGINAW M1 CARBINE rifle has fallen $0.00 dollars over the past 12 months to a price of $1,350.64 . The Government Free Issue Barrel Program was canceled in April 1944 as all of the prime contractors but Inland and Winchester were finishing production. 9. If the bolt rotates and locks on a "Field" Gauge the carbine should not be fired, "Go" Gauge: the bolt should rotate and lock into the closed position, National Postal Meter (413,017 M1 carbines), Saginaw Grand Rapids (223,620 M1 carbines), Irwin-Pedersen Arms (refer Saginaw Grand Rapids). The markings include the month and year of manufacture along with a lot number. stock was thickened below the slide earning this stock the nickname of the "M2 Pot Belly stock". To get better and faster responses and opinions. 
contact us using the forum. due to a lack of original documentation. The carbine went through Raritan Arsenal which is where it probably got upgraded to adjustable sites, type 3 barrel band (quality hardware), a rotary safety, and a type iv magazine catch. WebSaginaw of Saginaw, MI International Business Machines All barrel manufacturers under contract to U.S. Army Ordnance marked their barrels with either their name or manufacturers mark. paper and placed within an outer wrap for protection during long term storage. The contract was for the complete barrel assembly. Eventually followed by:
You sir have seemed to have done a lot of research on the history of each manufacture. The practice of restoring the overhauled carbines by replacing later and/or non-original parts is a widespread practice among many collectors today. and appears to have come later. The size of the P can vary. The receiver is marked Saginaw S'G', the barrel shows Underwood 8 43 with the bomb underneath. If you love history and firearms, this is truly an indispensable book! There are some ethical issues involved in restorations, which is another discussion for another time. It's tough to narrow exact production numbers as many S'G' primes were also used in the Irwin-Pedersen assembly, but no more than roughly 2.5% of total WW2 M1 Carbine production was done at the Grand Rapids plant of Saginaw Gear. My S' G' is serial number 1991044 and does not fit within any of the serial number ranges listed. Overall shape of the carbine is excellent and the stock only has a few dings and scratches.
Inland receivers initially rejected because of an off spec deep hole drilled for the recoil spring and guide, later recovered and altered to use a detachable main spring housing). XA through XD was assigned for use by their Engineering Section on carbines built for testing and evaluation by their engineers. Cut-away showing Swaged Gas Cylinder pressed onto barrel and gas port drilled through gas cylinder and barrel. Markings used by some of the The one and only finish approved for use on the wood of the Caliber .30 Carbine was raw linseed oil. This led to the pursuit of a carbine using a new .30 caliber round that was lighter than the M1 Garands .30-06 round and had more range than the .45 ACP that were in current use. We will first discuss the basic concepts, then we will see in more detail the characteristic elements of the M1 carbines of the second war. The Discussion Forum also serves as a reference desk for the more advanced material that could easily overwhelm a website and is often subject to opinions that may vary
Keep in mind, U.S. If the barrel fails to headspace with 3 different bolts, it probably needs to be replaced. Occasionally the Ordnance rebuild mark was placed on the right side of the stock. Shortages were common
This also aligns the barrel
Herlo's contract was for two barrel assemblies: NSN 3110-00-844-8416 Barrel Assembly, Carbine, hard chrome plated bore. 
Inland also subcontracted a number of
by Inland was more than any other manufacturer and can often be used to identify the barrel as having
It's tough to narrow exact production numbers as many S'G' primes were also used in the Irwin-Pedersen assembly, but no more than roughly 2.5% of total WW2 M1 Carbine production was done at the Grand Rapids plant of Saginaw Gear. Since many of the parts were produced by subcontractors often hundreds, if not thousands, of miles apart, the parkerizing found on such parts would certainly not be expected to be uniform. National Postal Meter initially used the letter P but switched to the use of a punch mark instead. companies to manufacture additional gas piston cylinders. Stocks made of
and is not a very late production Inland or Winchester, one may rest assured that the piece is a post-war rebuild or has been assembled from parts. Many, if not most, of the barrels were sold to the government of South Korea with many imported back into the
were parkerized, the tint and texture of these parts varied. 
WebExcellent World War II U.S. Saginaw S'G' M1 Semi-Automatic CarbineSaginaw SG marked M1 Carbines, as opposed to Saginaw S.G. marked, were manufactured from the remnants of the failed Irwin-Pedersen company production facility's in Grand Rapids, Michigan. The exact number of barrels provided and used via the program will never be known. WebDeemed the greatest single battle implement ever devised by man (Patton), the M1 Carbine is something that will consume you in the collecting of military surplus weapons and ignites a passion in collecting and restoring them. Here is a list of the different markings you can find on authentic M1 carbines : Crossed out markings :
Saginaw took over production in Grand Rapids and marked the facilities M1 Carbines After WWII many stocks & handguards did not have a manufacturers mark. Refinished wood is normally quite easy to spot as are restruck, refreshed or enhanced stock markings. Older Post during the time the carbines were manufactured. the weapon is fired. Quantity ordered were more than quantities delivered. A few very late stocks used with the M2 carbine are characterized by a very prominent bulge on the bottom of the forend. Gas pistons were unmarked
Caveat Emptor! Top: M1 stock with no cutout for selector switchBottom: Cutout for M2 selector switch inside the left side of the stock. .. Swivels: Unmarked -Underwood: Didn't mark them. The best way to ensure an item is yours is to purchase it directly off the website. This practice varied over time
This is due to the fact that, except for extremely late production Winchester and Inland examples, WWII carbines will have several features in common. barrels made by others, while within ordnance specifications, were sometimes at the other end of the allowances provided by the specifications and wouldn't fit
Parts marked with any other contractors code are almost always a sure sign that the carbine is not all original. Oval sling cut, High Wood covers slide
Early Winchester stocks may have no markings or a manufacturers mark inside the stock.Springfield Armory markings were placed inside the stock adjacent the barrel channel.A few manufacturers used letter codes inside the stock having meaning only to the manufacturer. 
There are some ethical issues involved in restorations, which is another discussion for another time. The trigger group is a type two pattern with the upright Inland Condition: Used - See Item Description. Add 3% for C/C. micrometric machined (Adjustable sight, milled construction). Others report they've had no problems with theirs. Webthe total production above included carbines produced for U.S. Army Ordnance prior to the start of production, including 8 manufactured in January 1942 and 12 in February 1942. Duff, Scott A., and David C. Clark. Each gauge is individually placed in the cleaned chamber, the bolt is then moved forward towards the breech until the bolt stops: Headspace is specific to the bolt and barrel. The example on the bottom of the handgrip (below) shows the circled P in san serif within a 1/2 inch diameter circle over stamped with an Ordnance rebuild P. Carbines having been rebuilt more than once will sometimes have
With the Old Breed: At Peleliu and Okinawa. 1. Not to
had passed inspection. The 12 month average price is $1,350.64 new and $1,255.22 used. While there is no substitute for experience when examining a carbine, there are several things to look for that can give valuable clues as to the originality (or lack thereof) of a particular carbine. Each was individually wrapped in protective
At least one document has been found that indicates Saginaw received Ordnance
WebThere are 2 Saginaw Gear manufacturers of M1 Carbines. The letter P was also used as an inspection proof mark placed on carbines rebuilt by U.S. Army Ordnance. Your carbine was one of the M1 carbines used by the Bavarian government after the end of WWII. None of the carbines produced by Irwin-Pedersen (IP) were accepted by Ordnance. to Inland, who marked with Inland markings before providing them to the program. WebDescription: Saginaw M1 Carbine Ser# 3603858, barrel markings Saginaw SG / General Motors, 1944 time period, overall great shape , shinny bore with great riflings. 
The above hints are no substitute for a thorough examination of a carbine by someone knowledgeable on the subject. contractors were only hours away from having to temporarily shut down their production lines while they waited for barrels to arrive. A circled P in san serif within a 1/2 inch diameter circle stamped in the bottom of the handgrip (above left) was sometimes used as a proof mark at several prime contractor facilities to indicate a completed carbine
After the completion of development by Winchester and adoption of the M1 Carbine in September 1941, the government began to contract production runs of the carbine to various private firms. been observed but are uncommon. Read about the Saginaw (S.G.) carbines here: - Serial number blocks assigned by the government: --1st block, (1) Serial Number 1,762,520 - 1,798,000 | April, 1943, - June, 1943 Some carbine owners use the bullet of a .30-06 cartridge to estimate bore wear, in lieu of a bore gauge. During the course of production of the Type III stock for the M1 Carbine several manufacturers began making changes
Full parts guide is included in the photos. Tustin, CA: North Cape Publications, 1994. The rifle was an immediate success thanks to its lightness and maneuverability (it could be held with one hand) and this despite its lack of power. for carbines having damaged or obliterated serial numbers. As the program progressed through 1943 the barrel shortage waned. Carbines that have one of these serial numbers may be an Engineering prototype, a "presentation" carbine, or both. Some people estimate a carbine's date of manufacture by adding the quantities manufactured month to month
At least one owner
If these are stamped with bogus, but seemingly proper markings, such stocks could appear to be highly desirable mint original stocks. In addition to this the carbine was a better weapon for the troops. Your Plant and Its Product. They were located in different cities. Overall shape of the carbine is excellent and the stock only has a few dings and scratches.
A bore gauge may be used to measure bore wear. until Ordnance arranged for additional barrel manufacturers. Quality Hardware's first month of production in February 1943 fell far short of scheduled carbine production due to a lack of barrels. The carbinewas issued to thosein combat, who where supposed to be doing other tasks than engaging the enemy with theirsmall armsfire such as commanders, radiomen, mortar men,rangers, machine gun crewmen, tankers, artillerymen, forward observers, signals troops, engineersandheadquarters staff. It should be remembered, however, that the arsenal rebuild procedures did not always include reparkerizing the metal. Why Did U.S. All barrel manufacturers under contract to U.S. Army Ordnance marked their barrels with either their name or manufacturers mark. Ruth, Larry L., and R. Blake. The 12 month average price is $1,350.64 new and $1,255.22 used. To avoid having to cross out the original manufacturer's name and retype the final manufacturer's name, the housings were marked 'Un-Quality'. 7. 4. High Pressure Test, Carbine, Cal .30, MI8, or other approved test (See applicable C.I.P.) The elimination of the bridge strengthening the stock forward of the trigger housing weakened this area making it prone to cracks. Such markings can be sanded off by someone wishing to remove such evidence so any sanded areas make the stock suspect. Inland later decided to present carbines as gifts to Inland employees, Swaged gas cylinders were normally manufactured by the company who manufactured the barrel.
Carbine barrels manufactured by Buffalo Arms
In one instance PFCEugene B. Sledge, a motarman in the 5thMarineregimentat the Battle of Peleliu, encountered a group of Japanese soldiers running across a reef several hundred yards away and let the rest of the company with full size rifles engage them to great effect while he simply watched (4, p.65-66). Both were Divisions of General Motors. WebSaginaw = SG; Saginaw (Grand Rapids) = SG Standard Products = S; Irwin-Pedersen = IP; IBM = B; Rock Ola = R; National Postal Meter = N; Quality Hardware = Q; Underwood = U; Therefore, for example, a carbine made by Rock Ola Barrels were a critical component in the production lines. Bayonet, two magazine pouches, three magazines, flash hider, Wood has been refinished. Black cherry was approved and saw very limited use. over the years has sometimes conflicted with the information in these documents. .. Swivels: Unmarked -Underwood: Didn't mark them. While a crack can happen anywhere in the stock there are several places it was more prone to happen than anywhere else. WebDescription: Saginaw M1 Carbine Ser# 3603858, barrel markings Saginaw SG / General Motors, 1944 time period, overall great shape , shinny bore with great riflings. WebManufacturers and reception markings on M1 carbine stocks. This distance is referred to as "headspace" and by design controls expansion of the casing and the gases generated when
WebA SAGINAW M1 CARBINE rifle is currently worth an average price of $1,350.64 new and $1,255.22 used . 
-Saginaw (S.G.): Marked Right Side: "PO" "SG" -No other contractor made these -Type III (Post War) -Could be marked: "SA" "RIA" "P" "R" -Bolts -Type I (Flat Bolt) -Inland: Right Lug, Marked "IO" in a circle, or the flaming bomb -Winchester: Right Lug, Unmarked / Punch Mark -No other contractors made these -Type II (Flat Bolt) TABLE H Inland Manufacturing In this book, you will find a lot of information you won't find anywhere else. If BI is observed on front of the swaged gas cylinder, the gas cylinder was made by
Tactics of the Battle of the River Raisin. A version with folding stock was developed for the airborne troops under the demomination 'M1 A1 Carbine'. and forward end of the chamber is critical. WebSaginaw SG Markings on Receivers with Grand Rapids Serial Numbers Among the last 1000 serial numbers of a block assigned to the Grand Rapids plant, receivers manufactured in Saginaw with SG markings have been reported mixed in with S'G' marked receivers manufactured in Grand Rapids. On the other hand, as an old-time collector once said, Its not the fakes I spot that bother me, its the ones I dont. would be used for the U.S. Carbine Models M1 or M1A1, and some of the M2's, were made well after the receiver was completed as all of these models used the same receiver. This website uses cookies for functionality, analytics and advertising purposes as described in our, Specific M1 Carbine Contractor Discussions.
It equipped from then on the units of support and support (transmission, artillery, transport, ).
Note: BI marked gas piston cylinders were manufactured by B & P Motor Company for Inland. -The 2nd model (1944-??) Length: 905 mm Irwin-Pedersen Numbers Reassigned to Saginaw at Grand Rapids. Alcohol, Tobbaco and Firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency. Most, but not all, were absent a date. WebThere were 3 basic handguard styles for the carbines M1 & M2, with minor variations by manufacturers that often changed over time. For the best experience on our site, be sure to turn on Javascript in your browser.